[Nocturnia]

A wise pastor of a church I attended a few years ago once said "Religion will kill you. Relationship will save you." One thing I want to say first off, is I am no hypocrite, and I certainly hold no hard feelings towards anyone who does not agree with what I say here, but what I'm saying is found in the Bible. What one makes of it is one's own choice, and I hope no one takes offense or feels like I'm pointing any fingers here, as I'm certainly guilty of breaking the "rules" myself. Getting the worst of it out of the way first... Yes, premarital sex is wrong. Sex was ordained as a holy consecrated act of love between a husband and wife. Sex before marriage has consequences, whether felt immediately or down the road. I had plenty of sex before I was married. Both marriages. And looking back, I wish I had waited, but that's times past. I know now that had I waited, my entire life would have been different than it is now, and I would not be blessed with the two children and wonderful husband I have now, and I'm so thankful to God for those blessings. Most people are under the impression that "Oops... I did something wrong.. now everything bad that happens to me is God punishing me for what I did..." Not so. Think of it like an umbrella. God's protection and love covers you like an umbrella. When you "sin", you obviously draw yourself away from God a little at a time, hence, stepping further and further out from under the umbrella. You can't expect to stay "dry" when you're not under the shield of the umbrella. God doesn't "punish" us in the way that lots of people assume or are taught. We pull away from God and turn our backs on Him by doing wrong, and when bad things happen that are outside the "umbrella" it's our own fault. I was raised to believe that God strikes us with punishments for chastisement and that we must be shown the error of our ways... The Bible says that there is no evil or darkness in God, only just things, goodness and love, for those that are his children. A "child of the King" is anyone who is "saved" or "born again", or a person under the age of reson that has no understanding of the things involving one's soul, i.e. babies, children, mentally handicapped etc. People often wonder "Why do bad things happen to people who don't deserve it", like innocent babies, war-torn villages, catastrophic event victims, and the list goes on. First, God is all powerful, omnipotent, omniscient. However, he created mankind with free will, the right to choose the difference between right and wrong in our consciences, which is what separates us from the animal kingdom. Animals know instincts and superficial feelings such as happpy, sad, but cannot commit a "sin" as they can't premeditate. There is no such thing as an animal's "revenge". People in this world today are responsible for their own actions, as they have the free choice of right and wrong. The bad things that happen are caused by people and the choices they make. The resulting catastrophes the we induce on each other in this world are either caused by their will, or their allowance of evil forces to direct their lives. It's a large scheming supernatural world we live in, and I, for one, amd glad to have God on my side. As I mentioned earlier in a different post, one can either take it or leave it, believe the Bible wholly, or not at all. There can't be an in-between. Hence, if there is God, there is Satan. If there are angels, there are demons. Demons run rampant in this world and have the ability to influence choices, the same way God influences the right choices. If we live the life God intended for us staying withing his boundaries, or "umbrella", then we have no worries, because we are under His protection. Stepping out of that safety, we have essentially told God "talk to the hand, dude... I got this taken care of" and in our little minds, we think we have everything under control. God cannot assist people who have turned their backs to Him, because they have made a choice to turn away. God will not force His will on us, it is why we were given the trait of free will. We are not all-knowing, and cannot see the future. When bad things happen to God's family, we immediately blame God for sleeping on duty. Sometimes we may not know why something has happened, but in His goodness, He has a plan that sometimes we can not understand, no matter how hard we try. It is a matter of ultimate trust. Unfortunately, I'm still having a hard time with it. I've always been so independant and done things for myself, that when I should leave a situation in God's hand, I often find myself dealing with and correcting the situation in my own way, which may not be the best thing for me, which I often discover sometimes months down the road.
There are SOOOOO many different things going on in this world today that bear discussion, being directly or indirectly related to the subject of "religion". Everything that happens in this world *somehow* is a cause-and-effect chain reaction to events that happened before the fact, both physical, spiritual, supernatural, and all the other aspects. It gets really deep. And I mean *real* deep. Demons, witchcraft, conspiracy, all tie in with prophecies in the Bible of things that will happen and that are happening today. Demons are real, witchcraft is real (trust me, I used to be one). But the good thing is, the powers of evil wouldn't make a zit on God's nose. I'm glad he's on my side. I just wish I would listen to Him more instead of being so stubborn. I'll get it right eventually.


This ought to be enough to spurn some interesting discussion, I would think. Thoughts or questions anyone?

[WayneXtreme]

Ok, I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread, so I'll just take a crack at it.

Ok, I agree that sex should be saved for marriage, but I have to fortunate enough to find my soul mate, maybe that's not the right choice of words, I'm not quite sure. I knew it when I first saw her, it took her awhile to admit it because she didn't want to hurt me.

As for religion, I believe in God and the devil, heaven and hell, demons and angels, but as for religion itself, I don't personally believe in it. I don't think that it's God's intention to make us constantly worship him just so he can feel special or something. I'm thankful for all that I have, for the most part anyway, and I give my props to the big man.

I don't care what anyone has to say about me, but that's my feelings and I'm sticking to them.

[Q]

Here's my stance on the topic of religion . Each person has a path to walk in life that is uniQue unto them . I cant walk their path , neither can they walk mine . My beliefs are "right" for me & yours are "right" for you . There are no wrong paths , just diffrent ones . I'm not really into any of the orginized religions , I more or less have my own way of observing & it doesnt include 100 or more other people . I'm kinda a solo act in that respect .

[Tson56]

Glad you started this thread, Nocturnia.
First let me say,I was raised in the church. Not particularly by fanatic, overly strict parents. At least in my eyes. We went to church and were involved as a family in all kinds of church activities. I have several cousins and an uncle that went into the ministry. Thats how I grew up. Probably one of the best morral foundations a person could recieve.
Much to my mothers dismay, when I went out on my own,I kinda fell away from it all.
Wheather it was an act of rebelion or as Q said, we have our own path to walk and/or our own way to go on that path. I wouldn't say I lost my faith, I just didn't want to be involved with organized religion.
Now that I'm getting older I'm finding myself wanting to involve myself in the church I know and the faith I know. I can't tell you any one reason that I'm feeling drawn back.
From all that I've gone through in the past few years, I was really close to actualy losing my faith. Maybe it was a "lesson" I was to learn. Some or most in the "new age" movement say we are all here to learn,in order to go onto the next level. I don't know if I agree with that. Although it does seem that the bad things that happen to you as a person do cause some learning.
Anyway most of your post isn't argumentative in my eyes. Just biblical fact. Some denominations just may interpit it a little bit differently. I would suggest everyone do what I am attempting to do. I decided to read the Bible. Front to back. No skipping. I think everyone should do it at least once in a lifetime. I am up to Proverbs now.

[Nocturnia]

Proverbs. 90% of that particular book was written by the wisest man to ever live. Solomon. Lots of simple wisdom to live by in that book. Yeah, I hear ya on the :falling away" bit. I did a 180 total turn around in the years after I left home at 13 and had to learn many a hard lesson. In my more recent years, I decided to rediscover God in my own way, and in my own time. I'm glad He was still there waiting for me after all. I still have a long way to go as far as "coming back to God" the way He would probably like, so it's a good thing He is patient. hehe. The proverbial "kicking against the pricks", one could say... Message me sometime and we'll chat more about this tuff if you want. nocturnia41272 (yahoo ID)

[UsualSusspect]

let me explain it this way.

yes i do beleive in god.

yes i do think that Jesus Christ is out savior.

do i go to chuch? no.

i find that my path on religion is not the same as others of one sect or another. i find that my perseption on my god and what i think religion is are not the norm and i tend to enflame and draw attention when i go to a church so i no longer attend.

in my mind set i try to blend what i know is from the bible and what science has taught us of evolution. that is the sore spot in most peoples lives. they want to argue the fact of religion and the bible or argue evolution. i try and blend the two and have come up with a happy medium that i think is what i believe. the I believe is the key, it is what I believe and that is my religion.

i hope this has made some common ground into how i view religion.

[Nocturnia]

Quote

i tend to enflame and draw attention when i go to a church so i no longer attend.

Exactly why I left the church to begin with. Stigmatization and the cold shoulder from so-called "God's children" who are out to impress, gossip and look nice in public for a couple hours. Enough to make anyone not want to go. Every now and then one can find a real place of worship to learn, inquire and socialize, but unfortunately these days, it's a rare find in churches of modern society.

[Tson56]

I do understand what you're saying Lost. I think the human race has evolved to some extent. I just don't think we came from the premordial slime that you hear about. I don't think time can be thought of the same as it was in ancient days. When the Bible says the earth was created in 6 days, we don't know the length of Gods day. But also its hard to even imagine even the simpliest things in nature happening without some sort of devine intervention. Then you look at the miracle of child birth, or even birth in the animal world. How amazing is that? Going from a seed and egg to a usually perfect little copy. Everything thats needed to form is in those two little things. I am so filled with wonder at everything I see in nature.

[UsualSusspect]

i would guess one of the main reasons i find alot of issues is that i live in a religious town where you can either be southern baptist or extreme catholic.

it is just that my point of view is so different from others that there is always a conflict and i must do what i think i need to do to worship my god on my own.

i do that with love and acceptance. i love my god and know that jesus christ was the savior and i must worship that in a manor that i must see fit for my person. thanks for understanding my point of view.

[LaFemmeMystique]

Is it safe to assume that when sombody calls themself a Christian (Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc) that they believe certain things? Because the Bible CLEARLY states that premarital sex, and homosexuality among other things, is wrong. I agree with Nocturnia that Christianity is all or nothing, you don't get to pick the parts you want to believe.

[UsualSusspect]

LaFemmeMystique said:

Is it safe to assume that when sombody calls themself a Christian (Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, etc) that they believe certain things? Because the Bible CLEARLY states that premarital sex, and homosexuality among other things, is wrong. I agree with Nocturnia that Christianity is all or nothing, you don't get to pick the parts you want to believe.

that goes into subject matter that i will not debate with you, that is an aspect of the persons religion as he or she can see onto himself or herself the way that he/she feels on his/her religion. that is a personal matter between that person and their god. it is not for society to dictate. that is why we have catholics, lutherns, baptists etc. no one person feels the same on any one topic except that you want it in your life.

[Nocturnia]

It's safe and accurate to assume that some that call themselves a Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist etc that they have various customs and minor variations in their belief systems. There are Christians in all walks of religions. Some Baptist go so far as to say Catholics are not going to go to heaven, and vice versa with different religions. That is grossly inaccurate and unfair. If someone has a true love in their heart for God and a desire to be a good christian, than who is someone else to say that because they belong to a different denomination that they are not a child of God? Only God knows what's in someone's heart. It's between that person and God, like what lostintexas said.

[LaFemmeMystique]

I gave those two items as examples. I never intended to debate those topics with you or anyone else. Here is my question specifically:

Statement: A woman says she is a Christian.

Are there things that you can safely assume that she believes are wrong?
(I'll try to choose something less antagonistic)

Would you assume she thinks that stealing is wrong? Infidelity? Cheating?

I am going somewhere with this. I just want to establish something first.


EDIT: Nocturnia replied while I was typing and I do appriciate what she said.

[Nocturnia]

Generally speaking, yes, I would have to say I would assume she would hold to the beliefs that certain actions are wrong. Am I interpreting your question correctly?

[UsualSusspect]

Quote

I gave those two items as examples. I never intended to debate those topics with you or anyone else. Here is my question specifically:

Statement: A woman says she is a Christian.

Are there things that you can safely assume that she believes are wrong?
(I'll try to choose something less antagonistic)

Would you assume she thinks that stealing is wrong? Infidelity? Cheating?

I am going somewhere with this. I just want to establish something first.

that is her moral obligation to her god and herself( speaking of a female as in your post ) is wrong. i can i can give you phone numbers to people that find that drugs are not moraly wrong and will argue the point untill they pass out.

in my opinion, yes, stealing is wrong. in my partners opinion, yes the same.

infidelity, in my opinion yes as is my partners. i can not speak for the rest of people on the planet. there are some groups of people that feel it is a given right.

cheating is always wrong, that implies infidelity without your partners consent. that is wrong and a reason to not have a relationship.

[LaFemmeMystique]

I'm not going to say what I was going to say.


For the record: I was a strong Christian for many years. I was a struggling Christian for many years after that and then I had to let it go altogether because I could not reconcile things that I came to believe with things that I was being taught. One of those things is the the treatment of homosexuals by the church.

But I have to say that I am a Non-Christian because though I still hold many of the same values, I really believe in the all or nothing policy.

Sorry if I aggravated anyone.

[Nocturnia]

What sort of treatment by the church? Acceptance of homosexuality? Or the reverse?

[LaFemmeMystique]

Interesting. Both I guess. Acceptance of homosexuality by a church that knows that it goes against doctrin. But mostly the fact that it goes against doctrin in the first place. Why does God even care about homosexuality?

[Nocturnia]

Because. He created man for woman and woman for man. We don't see animals or plantlife going against the way God intended nature to be. Male and female were created to compliment each other. It is the natural way of things.

[Tson56]

None of us here are condeming your choices. If thats what you are thinking. If you are looking for acceptance, I'm sure there would be a home for you in some church or another. Don't shut God out of your life because you may have questions about the "all or none" theroy. It would be better to try to be close to God and be aware that you may have issues to discuss with him,rather than go it alone.