Do you know what Wahhabism is?
Posted Sun Feb 03, 2013 02:38 PM
Propaganda has always been a powerful weapon during wars, cold and hot ones. It is a weapon of mass destruction, and it is being used now to help obscurantism and ignorance prevail over modern ideas and a more progressive way of life, one respecting freedom and the like. This article is about oil money financing massive propaganda in the west to help propagate something no civilized society wants.
Wahhabism, Salafism and the like scare the hell out of me. One of the things that also scares me is that we can't fight back, because they have the oil. Or can we? On their side, they also have it that we respect freedom of speech and are politically correct (one of my pet dislikes), while they simply decapitate, hang, flog or stone, or throw a fatwa on anyone saying something they don't like or drawing something they don't like.
The world is changing. And we're ignorant about a nagging chunk of it. I think we should pay more attention.
Posted Sun Feb 03, 2013 02:43 PM
Posted Sun Feb 03, 2013 04:14 PM
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:25 AM
Remember that there is no God, and therefore cannot be any absolute right or wrong. Repression, subjugation, and consumption is a naturally occurring phenomenon within nature. And while we can trumpet our pride at having evolved beyond that, we really haven't. You see, natural selection is how humans got to be human in the first place. That means some life forms had to die off before they could reproduce...If all living creatures respected the rights of other living creatures millions of years ago, evolution wouldn't have transpired and the glorious pinnacle that is the ever-more-socialist-humanity wouldn't exist.
You see, these Wahabi-ists live and conduct their societies in ways that you find absolutely repugnant...perhaps even evil. (such a concept in a matter of opinion, though) Yet your society conducts itself in a way that they find absolutely repugnant, and evil. And like them, you think you're the one that's right. Given that we are all animated blobs of carbon-based organic matter flittering about a universe that only exists because some obscure infinite singularity went "BANG"....what irrefutable measuring tool can you provide that dictates that you are right and they are wrong? What super-universal authority exists that says X is right and Y is wrong?
Yes, Wahabi-ism is hyper fundamentalist and extremely closed minded. Many of their practices are violent and hyper restrictive. So...what do you think should be done about it? Invade them by force and impose your world view on them? Make them accept western democracy and adopt a liberal progressive culture? Or do you think some of us should go and preach to them the superiority of secular progressive democracy?
Unless you're willing to become like them (decide you wont tolerate them and make them change by force), you really have no choice to accept that they're there, and they'll keep doing as they please.
This post has been edited by ilyushin: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:29 AM
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 04:05 AM
I'm an atheist, but I never tried to stop anyone from praying, going to their church, mosque or synagogue and things like that. On the contrary, I've even prayed for friends who were in distress and asked me to pray for them! I didn't see how it would help, but what wouldn't you do for a friend in need????
The problem isn't what they do in Saudi Arabia! Well, true, it does hurt to know somebody is being stoned for no good reason. Or that girls had to burn inside a school on fire, because running away from it, they had no time to fetch their head cover and the security of the place didn't let them leave it and escape the fire for that reason. All bad news, but it is their regime, in their country. That's not THE problem.
And I'm not talking about Islam. I'm talking about the hardcore version of it, the one that says that even other Muslims should be killed, because they're infidels in their eyes.
The problem is when it wants to spread and change the way you live in America, for instance. The problem is the Crusades. Wahhabism is trying, and succeeding, to replace moderate Islam all over the world. Taliban is a consequence of it. Al Qaida is a consequence of it. The fact there are more Muslim women wearing a scarf now, than a few years ago, is a consequence of it (I give this as an example, but that's not grave, of course, they can wear wherever they want to wear). Those terrorist attacks in the US (September 11th), in Europe (Britain, France, Spain) they're a direct consequence of it. There is a crusade going on to spread it everywhere. There is the money to do it. Where does the money to stir these terrorist attacks come from? Terrorist attacks in Turkey, Iraq, Kenya, Tanzania, Pakistan, Algeria... thousand of silent deaths. On a daily basis.
I don't know in the US, but in the rest of the world, where it is allowed, like in Europe, several Asian countries and countries in the Middle East (not all, because some outlawed Salafism, to try to stop it, like countries in Central Asia and Maghreb, Middle East...), the great majority of imans (the "priests" of mosques) are formed and sponsored by Saudi Arabia and its branches. It is part of the propaganda, part of the crusade movement.
Taliban is a huge concern in Pakistan. It is spreading, like it was doing in Mali. They already dominate a chunk of the country and the government had to just give up fighting them. OK, Pakistan is very far and one can think "who cares." But Pakistan is a big player. One with nuclear weapons, no less. Will a Taliban in power use it? Who knows. We'll find out in 10, 20 years. But, using it or not, a completely different type of cold war is in the making.
Now, what do I think we should do? Nothing. We're powerless. Indoctrination, one can't sort out with air raids, or troops, stuff like that. Whatever civilization would do to try to stop it, it'd only make it worse. The propaganda will turn anything done to their advantage. Mainly, because we're very ignorant about Islam and when measures are taken, they're so not-well-thought-of, that the rest of Muslims, the moderate ones that don't wanna hurt anyone, just leave in peace and harmony, feel attacked, too. And this causes the radicalization of their young, growing the ranks of salafists... all these wars were greeted by wahhabis, because they helped their cause. When you radicalize the us/them divide, you always lose, because radicalization is all they're asking for.
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 05:12 AM
And you also don't have to tell me how important nations like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are...my country attacks Pakistan on a weekly basis. (see; drone attacks) The Saudi military is largely composed of U.S. planes, tanks, etc. And lets not pretend that we are sending additional arms to Saudi Arabia that the Saudis are sending to the rebels in Syria. (What was it you were saying about who the Suadis support around the world?) And don't forget Egypt, the nation that nearing collapse with the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood losing it's grip on power...does that stop us from sending Egypt 200 F-16 tactical fighters and hundreds of M1 Abrams tanks? Nope! We are sending badass military hardware to a extremist muslim government that scares you, and they're losing their grip on power to....no one knows who yet. We have no idea who's going to be using these F-16's and Abrams tanks, LOL.
(And every one is screaming that we should disarm U.S. citizens, lol....)
What you don't understand is this: The "crusading" aspect of this extreme Islam isn't a self-propelled concept. It's growth didn't come out of nowhere. There's a reason it's spreading and on the rise. This wasn't an issue in the 1950's, 1920's, 1800's, etc....Islamic aggression among western nations is a newer phenomenon, largely starting in the 1970's. You see, Alien....something has prompted this highly expansionist mindset that we're seeing today. I'll give you a hint as to what it is : blowback....If you really are concerned about this and are inclined to know what's causing it, it no more difficult than a 10 minute history lesson.
In so much as stopping the spread of it...you really can't. People will chose what they believe, and how to live. You can't outlaw thoughts...at least, not yet. And since you can't outlaw beliefs and thoughts, there's little to done except sit back and celebrate diversity! Because after all, not being accepting of all types of diversity is intolerance.
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 06:18 AM
In so much as stopping the spread of it...you really can't.
Exactly, like I say in my last paragraph.
I still don't like it, though. But that's just my opinion. You're super free to disagree. You don't have to share my opinion, of course. I'll repeat it: people believe in what they want and that's their choice. When they wanna impose it and kill whoever doesn't wanna comply, that's something completely different.
A popular example, since I see I still didn't get myself understood: Salman Rushdie writes a book and one doesn't like it. He had the right to write it and a fellow had the right not to like it. I think you can agree with that. But it becomes a problem when the one who didn't like it throws a fatwa and Rushdie has to hide for the rest of his life. I think that's the only bit where we disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion, just like I'm entitled to mine.
People who decree fatwas scare me. They have their right to believe in what they want, of course, and I'm all pro that. They even have the right not to like the way I decide to live, and, again, I'm all pro that. It's freedom. The only problem is when they think that if one doesn't think like them, one shouldn't exist, AND they act on it.
If I really disliked a book that much, the maximum I'd do would be to try to get a refund. I actually didn't like the book, but I didn't even try to get a refund, since I had read it, already.
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 06:48 AM
I agree that people should be allowed to follow whatever backwards garbage they choose, but I wasn't sure if you were just commenting or actually espoused a more proactive approach.
As for acting on their ideas about some people not existing...well, that's part of the human condition. Humans are, by evolution's own hand, made to be (among other things) violent.
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:06 AM
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 06:37 PM
The artist who made that Draw A Picture of Mohammad Day has to be in hiding for the rest of her life (I'm pretty sure it was a woman), the guy who made that (stupid) movie that apparently inspired the attack on the US embassy that killed the Libyan ambassador and a few other employees is in a similar situation. A filmmaker got stabbed in the streets in broad daylight for doing something similar. A newspaper office got blown up for printing a cartoon of Mohammad.
I'm all for religious freedom and tolerance, and part of that is being able to criticize other religions without fear of violent retaliation. It's fine if you hated The Satanic Verses. It's fine if it offended you. But to threaten Rushdie with violence and force him into hiding is completely unacceptable. Even to demand that the book gets banned is stepping over the line. Whatever happened to freedom of speech in this world?
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 07:05 PM
Oh, no—wait! That's "Wasabism".
Posted Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:47 PM
So, they'll keep killing and fatwa-ing until they don't anymore. Accept them doing what they do, and move on with life.